Christians Together : When was Jesus born?

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	Innocent bystander (Guest)	03/12/2013 14:22
Penny Lee, Sorry, I didn't mean to upset you.
	Colin Ford (Guest)	03/12/2013 14:42
John, Indeed we CAN bear witness to a "Child born to die". Silly advert! We are ALL born to die? Hebrews 9.27 KJV. That advert is certainly a "denial of Scripture". Also, "the practice of gift exchange" IS mentioned in the Bible; Esther 9.19 KJV, Nehemiah 8.10 KJV etc. The NIV renders "portion" as "Present". Purim is a man-made Jewish feast, but never the less, this practice is mentioned in Scripture.
	John Miller	03/12/2013 15:49
Colin the purpose of Christ's first advent was as the Lamb of God to take away the sin of the world. Before His death in the countless ages of eternity He was pre-destined in God's eternal counsel to die an atoning death. His death stands alone, eternally unique. Our deaths are the wages of sin.
	Penny Lee	03/12/2013 16:47
Innocent Bystander, please don't think you upset me, you didn't. I was just wanting to explain that I know I have a real and precious personal relationship with God. Maturity has taught me that there are many things in life which are not worth getting into a stooshie about and Christmas trees are on of them. Honestly, no offence was taken by your comments. {{hugs}}.
	Penny Lee	03/12/2013 16:51
Colin, "I think you meant sinless" Indeed I did - it's a pretty crucial mistake though, isn't it! I suspect it was another result of my iPad self-correcting facility, but it's pretty sad that it chooses 'sinful' over 'sinless' as its default. Perhaps an indication of how far we have fallen.
	Dreamer (Guest)	03/12/2013 17:07
John, you said that Christ's death stands alone, eternally unique. I understand where you're coming from - but, thank God, your wrong - because 'the elect' also were eternally predestined to die with Christ and thereby become reconciled to, and become eternally one with Him.
	Editor	03/12/2013 17:15
Please note: All future '(Guest)' postings on this thread will be deleted. Logged in site members can continue to post. If others who are posting wish to continue then please register with the site (including Dreamer/Innocent Bystander/Derek/etc.) Thanks.
	Colin Ford (Guest)	03/12/2013 18:09
Editor, I have tried about three times to log in, three times failed! I have followed instructions. I will have another go tomorrow. John, yes, indeed. Revelation 13.8 KJV
	John Miller	03/12/2013 18:31
Editor thanks for that. I appreciate your intervention. Dreamer's last post was a strange observation from one who professes to be a believer in Jesus Christ. I have no difficulty with the truth of predestination. How could I? It is biblical. To equate the death of God's only begotten Son with our death with Him or our physical death is wrong. Our death with Him, signified in the ordinance of baptism is an expression of our faith in Him. It does not bear comparison with the death of our Lord and Saviour on the cross. In receiving Him as our Saviour we are divinely recognised as being dead with Him in the faith of our souls. He died an atoning death. It was and eternally will be so. Our physical death, even though eternally saved by the blood of Christ, is nevertheless the wages of sin. Even a Christian martyr, and who can refrain from pausing in awe at such faith, cannot be compared in their death with Christ. They died in faith because he had born their sins. Their deaths ushered them into His presence immediately. I do not disagree that our blessing in life as in death is the subject of predestination although I do not agree with the theories of extreme Calvinism which appears to remove man's responsibility. I await cries of disagreement! The death of my Saviour, God's only begotten Son, eternally God in a His person was unique. It stands like some towering mystery in time and will remain so throughout the timeless ages of eternity.
	Jenny Yates	28/12/2024 11:57
I used to think that Jesus was probably born in the autumn, at the time of the Feast of Tabernacles, based on the arguments presented above, and John 1:14. However, I have recently begun to have serious doubts about it for two reasons. Firstly, it is impossible to know on what occasion the Angel Gabriel appeared to Zechariah. The author's calculations are based on each of the 24 priestly divisions being on duty for two weeks once a year, and the rota always starting on 1st Nisan, but some sources say it was one week, twice a year. Which is correct? Then, ALL the priests were on duty for the Feasts, so taking Pesach and Shavuot into account would move Abijah's division on two weeks, and it also means that Gabriel could have appeared to Zechariah when he was at the temple for one of the feasts, rather than during a regular turn of duty. There is a further complication. Hebrew months are lunar, each lasting 29 or 30 days, so a twelve month period is 10 or 11 days short of the solar year. To keep in synch with the seasons, seven out of every 19 years are leap years, when the last month is repeated - Adar Aleph and Adar Bet - so who covered the extra weeks? Did they just keep going with the rota so that the time of year each division was on duty gradually moved? Answer: We don't know! A lunar year of c.354 days is not an exact number of weeks anyway, so how did that work? Again, we don't know. Therefore, I suggest that any attempt to calculate the time of year Jesus was born, based on the conception of John the Baptist, has to be very tentative, to say the least. There is a far simpler way to know the time of year, and it's perfectly clear from Scripture. The spring feasts foreshadowed Jesus' first coming - Pesach and First Fruits, his death and resurrection, and Shavuot, the outpouring of the Holy Spirit. The autumn feasts foreshadow his second coming and related end-time events. Luke tells us that the shepherds to whom the angel brought the good news, were "keeping watch over their flocks by night." The fields around Bethlehem were where the animals for temple sacrifices were bred and reared, especially the Passover lambs. The males born one spring would be sacrificed at Passover the following year. Normally, only one or two shepherds would be awake at night, protecting the sheep from thieves and predators, presumably on a rota basis, as they needed to sleep sometime! However, at lambing time, they would ALL be keeping a very careful watch for ewes going into labour, to ensure the safe arrival of those precious lambs. That is why they were ALL keeping watch on that momentous occasion! It makes perfect sense to believe that Jesus, our Passover Lamb, was born in the same area, at the same time as the Passover lambs. The census was probably held in late Adar to early Nisan, and Mary and Joseph stayed on in Bethlehem for the birth. Contrary to popular myth, Mary was not actually in labour as they arrived in the town, she was only in the late stage of pregnancy. If this is correct, Jesus might well have been conceived at Shavuot the previous year, when the Jews were celebrating the giving of the Torah at Mount Sinai: "For the Law came through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ." (John 1:17). This does raise the question of when Gabriel appeared to Zechariah, but it could have been at Hanukkah. As I say above, we cannot be at all certain when Zechariah was on temple duty. Thus, although we cannot be sure, I think the most likely time for the birth of our wonderful Saviour is in the spring, at the time of Passover.

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When was Jesus born?

In spite of the carol which sings of 'in the bleak mid-Winter' and in spite of any hard evidence regarding the time of Jesus birth it is highly unlikely that He was born in December.