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The Timing of the Rapture?
The predominant positions regarding the rapture of the church are either pre-tribulation or post-tribulation. What does the Bible say?
Ed preface:
The concept of a 'Platypus Challenge' presents an opportunity to examine these areas of scripture on which there are differing opinions.
(An earlier Platypus challenge examined the question of 'Once Saved; Always Saved?'.)
The closer we get to the return of Christ the clearer we need to be in our understanding of key events in the light of God's word. The differing views on the timing of the (pre-millennial) rapture of the saints mainly split down to whether this will occur either before or after what the Bible describes as 'the great tribulation' (Matt. 24:21).
Note: While there are even variations within the pre-trib view and also different opinions on the precise nature of the Rapture itself – whether as a 'disappearing' or a 'welcoming' congregation at Jesus' return – this article concentrates on the question of the timing.
Under 'Platypus' rules, each of the two participants (of differing views) supplies up to eight verses (or short extracts) directly from the Bible without any additional comments or remarks. Each participant then furnishes a response – in the form of a rebuttal – to the opposing verses.
The respective verses offered by each of the participants and the subsequent responses/rebuttals are listed below.
Proposition: 'Believers will be raptured prior to the great tribulation'
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FOR
i.e. verses offered in support of
a pre-trib Rapture
PLUS -
Counter-arguments to these verses |
AGAINST
i.e. verses offered which in support of
a post-trib Rapture
PLUS -
Counter-arguments to these verses
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Verses below FOR Proposition + rebuttals
(mouse-over verses for pop-ups) |
Verses below AGAINST proposition + rebuttals
(mouse-over verses for pop-ups)
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1 Corinthians 15:51-53
Rebuttal (concerning above text):
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The theme of 1 Corinthians 15 is the resurrection, which takes place at the coming of Jesus (1 Cor 15: 23). The resurrection is followed by His reign until all His enemies are conquered (1 Cor 15: 25). Revelation 20: 7 - 10 places the final defeat of all who are against Christ, at the end of His millennial reign.
The question is asked, how are the dead raised? (1 Cor 15: 35). Although Paul regards it as a foolish question he goes on to provide an answer as far as he is able. Our present corruptible bodies will be raised incorruptible (1 Cor 15: 42). They will bare the image of Christ (1 Cor 15: 49). This is supported in 1 John 3: 2 “when He is revealed we shall be like Him. According to 1 Cor 15: 50 our present corruptible bodies will not inherit the kingdom of God. Instead in an instant we will be transformed (1 Cor 15: 52). We will be given new incorruptible bodies. We are assured in 1 Cor 15: 51 that the resurrection will apply to all the faithful. The many who are dead and those who are still living, both will be transformed at this time.
In 2 Corinthians 5: 4 Paul likens our intermediate state after death and before the resurrection as being unclothed. He looks forward to being clothed in his resurrection body. In the intermediate state of heaven we do not have a body. Bodies are required for life on earth.
We are coming back to reign with Christ (Revelation 5: 10. 20: 4, etc.)
1 Corinthians 15 makes no mention of being gathered up. It is about being equipped with a new body so that we can serve Jesus by reigning on the earth. Why will the saints be given a new body if they are returning to heaven where they have existed for a time without the need for a body? Our eternal destiny is to live in and maintain the material world. It is a task for which we will require a body.
Jesus’ direction of travel is earthward. As we will see, we are caught up to greet Him and accompany Him on his journey to claim His throne.
The timing is clearly stated. It will happen at Christ’s coming (1 Cor 15: 23) and the sounding of the last trumpet (1 Cor 15: 52).
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Philippians 3:20-21
Rebuttal:
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“Our citizenship is in heaven” Here on earth as citizens of heaven we live by the standards of heaven.
Philippians 3: 17 - 21 contrasts those who set their minds on earthly things with those who follow Christ. Like the faithful in Hebrews 11 we seek and long for a heavenly country in contrast to the fallen world in which we presently live. As with the passage in Corinthians 15 these verses speaks of the new body which we require when heaven comes down to men. Heaven for us will always be the material world of God’s amazing creation. One day heaven, the dwelling place of God, and the material world of His creation will become one (Revelation 21: 22).
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1 Thessalonians 4:13-18
Rebuttal:
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This passage describes the ‘parousia’ of our Lord and its consequences for us. The greek word parousia is usually translated as coming or presence. Although a word in general use it had a special meaning when used in connection with a great dignitary.
In the UK if it is announced that there will be a state visit by another country’s head of state we have a good idea of what is involved. The flags of the visiting leader’s nation will be displayed down the Mall. There will be a banquet at Buckingham Palace. The head of State and our Prime Minister will visit certain selected sites.
In the ancient world from about the third century BC the parousia of an emperor or ruler to a city would have a similar meaning. One feature would be the leading citizens of the city coming out to welcome the emperor and escort him back into the city. [Adolf Deissmann gives several examples of this in his book ‘Light from the Ancient East’ pages 368 to 373].
When the King of kings and Lord of lord’s comes (parousia) we will be gathered to escort Him to his throne. We will be transformed ready to reign with Him on earth. As with 1 Corinthians 15 this will be announced by the trumpet of God.
Is this before or after the great tribulation which Jesus warned us about?
To find out we need to look at a comparison between this passage in 1 Thessalonians 4 and Matthew 24. Below is a chart which compares the two scriptures.
EVENT(S)
Christ returns
(1 Thess. 4:16; Matt. 24:30)
from heaven
(1 Thess.4:16; Matt. 24:30)
accompanied by angels
(1 Thess. 4:16; Matt. 24:31)
with a trumpet of God
(1 Thess. 4:16; Matt. 24:31)
believers gathered to Christ
(1 Thess. 4:17; Matt. 24:31)
Mark’s Gospel adds that they are at this time gathered from the farthest corner of heaven which parallels the dead in Christ [who are in heaven] will rise first.
(1 Thess. 4:16; Mark 13:27)
in clouds
(1 Thess. 4:17; Matt. 24:30)
time unknown
(1 Thess. 5:12; Matt. 24:36)
coming like a thief
(1 Thess. 5:2,4; Matt. 24:43)
unbelievers unaware of impending judgment
(1 Thess. 5:3; Matt. 24:37-39(M)
judgment comes as pain upon an expectant mother
(1 Thess. 5:3; Matt. 24:8)
believers not deceived
(1 Thess. 5:4-5; Matt. 24:43)
believers to be watchful
(1 Thess. 5:6; Matt. 24:37-39)
warning against drunkenness
(1 Thess. 5:7; Matt. 24:49)
There are so many similarities that it is difficult to argue that they are not describing the same event.
Matthew 24:29,30 sets this event after the tribulation.
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1 Thessalonians 5:9-11
Rebuttal:
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In 1 Thessalonians 5 we have an exhortation not to sleep. We are to watch, (1 Thessalonians 5: 6). We are to be on our guard against the influence of the world.
Our response to the world is to be sober, putting on the breast plate of faith and love and as a helmet the hope of salvation.
Those who go the way of the world will be judged and suffer God’s wrath. This is a reminder to remain vigilant so that we obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ. Wrath is used here in contrast to salvation.
The full force of God’s wrath will be seen on the Day of Judgment. We are to follow Christ’s example and overcome tribulation by keeping focused on the glory of salvation which is to come.
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2nd Thessalonians 2:1-4
Rebuttal:
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Paul has to write to correct an error which had crept into the church disturbing some. He comforts them by reminding them of their salvation (2 Thess 2: 13) and the everlasting consolation which we have in Christ (2 Thess 2: 16 -17). In his previous letter Paul has written about the resurrection and rapture of those who believe. If we are to be raptured before the man of sin and apostasy, Paul could have greatly comforted the Thessalonians with the assurance that they would be removed before these events. In which case what follows would only be of academic interest to them.
Instead he warns that the man of sin and apostasy come before the day of the Lord. They need to know about and be prepared for the great deception which Satan will be allowed to accomplish. Paul provides the assurance that everything which happens is under the sovereign will of God. The Lord is using these events for His own purposes. When Jesus comes he will destroy the man of sin and judge those who believe the lie.
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Titus 2:13
Rebuttal:
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Jesus for the joy set before Him endured the cross (Hebrews 12: 2).
To endure suffering we need to look beyond our present condition to the glory which lies ahead. Our example is Jesus who, on the cross, endured suffering beyond what we can ever imagine. He did it for us and the joy which it gave him to have in prospect a bride who He loves and who loves Him. The suffering of this present time even the tribulation which ends this present age is nothing compared to the glory which The Father and Son have in store for us. (Romans 8: 18). The return of Jesus at the close of this age is truly our blessed hope.
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Mark 13:24-27
Rebuttal (concerning above text):
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The event Christ is speaking about is His Second Coming after the Tribulation. When He returns, He sends His angels to gather the elect. The elect here is referring to Israel and more specifically the believing remnant. Israel is always referred to as God’s elect. In the Epistles, Christians are also referred to as the elect but here Christ is teaching His disciples and their expectation based on the Old Testament and all Christ has taught is the salvation and gathering of a Jewish remnant. In still in keeping with the teaching of Matthew 24, Revelation 7(144 000 Jewish remnant), Revelation 12 and 19.
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1 Thessalonians 4:15 &
1 Corinthians 15: 51-53
Rebuttal:
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I am combing these two passages, because I believe Paul is speaking of the same event. The resurrection was never a mystery, John 11:25-27, but the mystery is specifically connected to the Church(Jew and Gentile), Ephesians 3:4-7. Both passages reveal a transformation and caught up(Harpazo, Rapture). In the Second Coming, Christ returns to earth, Zechariah 14:4, in 1 Thessalonians we meet the Lord in the air to be with Him. These events are in the air and not on the earth nor with the expectation of being on earth.
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2 Thessalonians 1:4-10
Rebuttal:
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I believe Paul in these verses is giving a general overview of God’s retribution and righteous judgment. He is comforting the Thessalonians who have suffered. Chapter 2 is more specific and detailed to events surrounding, the Rapture, the Tribulation and Antichrist. V5 is speaking of sanctification and God’s work in preparation for His kingdom. V6 God will repay with tribulation all who are ungodly and oppose the gospel and God’s people. V7-10 is referring to Christ position as judge and returning in judgment. Paul is speaking in a general sense focusing on Christ’s judgment and retribution to comfort the Thessalonians.
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Revelation 13:7-10
Rebuttal:
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The Saints here in keeping with the teaching of Revelation is referring to the believing Jewish remnant and all who accept the Lord Jesus Christ and the message of the kingom in the Tribulation, Jew and Gentile.
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Revelation 20:4,5
Rebuttal:
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Here we see all who died for Christ in the Tribulation and those who have come through the Tribulation will reign with Christ in the kingdom. See also Matt. 24:29-31; Mark 13:24-27
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Acts 1:11
Rebuttal:
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As Jesus ascended into Heaven, the angels declares what Zecheriah 14:4 says. The reference here is to the Second Coming of Christ to emancipate Israel and establish His earthly Kingdom. At this time the Disciples were only aware of what the Old Testament declared, Luke 24:45 and Acts 1:6. The Rapture of the Church fits into the mystery of the Church, not revealed until Paul the Apostles made this known to the Disciples, Ephesians 3:1-8 and 2 Peter 3:15-16. The account of the ascension and the return of Christ fits in with the prophecies of the Old Testament looking forward to the return of Christ.
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2 Thessalonians 2:1-3
Rebuttal:
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Why would they be concerned that the return of Christ has come? If it was the Second Coming they would be in the kingdom. They were concerned that the Rapture had happened, especially their concern for those who died in Christ. They were troubled because they thought they had missed His return and were in the Great Tribulation because they faced persecution at that time. Paul assures them that He had not come yet.
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 Notes:
1. A believer's view of the pre/post-millennial question will shape the individual's expectation of what lies ahead.
2. The results of an earlier poll of views will be published in due course.
3. The nature of the topic and discussion is in line with the 'equal opportunities' policy of the Christians Together website.
4. Readers can supply comments in the 'Response' facility below. Any views expressed should quote the Bible verses on which these views rely. And it is always good to remind ourselves to disagree with grace. See left-hand margin at the top of this article for additional references.
5. An earlier (2014) exchange of views on the subject between Rev. Tony Higton and Donald Cameron of PWMI can be seen here.
6. Differing views on the Millennium itself are not the subject of this article, but these can be found by clicking here.
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The Editor, 02/04/2024
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Nick Thompson |
03/06/2024 19:52 |
My own personal sense is that first we need to define the term rapture. My understanding is that it refers to a city or community being visited by the emperor where the citizens go out to greet the emperor and escort him in and welcome him.
The place I have come to is that those who go out/up to greet Jesus and His Army will be those Believers who understand God's twin priorities of Jesus and Israel. Left behind will be those subscribing to replacement theology and/or orthodox judasim, hence Matthew's sheep and goats.
For me the question is more around 'how long will the greeting and escorting process take? Is it pretty instantaneous or is it some period of lapsed time?
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Simon Pease |
03/06/2024 20:22 |
This online discussion format is helpful and the comments from both sides appreciated.
I have two related questions which I think are widely overlooked by the body of Christ generally, and am asking these in a genuine spirit of enquiry.
(1) Does the Lord separate His elect or unite them? (See discussion on Mark 13 and Matthew 24 above)
Passages such as Ephesians 2 ("one new man"), Romans 11 (the ingrafting of Jews and Gentiles into the community of believers), Isaiah 49 (Messiah's mission to bring Jews back into relationship with God and reveal Him to the nations) all emphasise the Lord's purpose of uniting His people. Believing Gentiles are, of course, brought into the New Covenant established with the Jewish people (Jeremiah 31). Could Dispensationalism's historical teaching of a "heavenly people" and an "earthly people" be a case of man theologically separating what God has put together, and if so, might this lie at the root - to a greater or lesser degree - of the pre-tribulation rapture teaching?
Both sides in this discussion most likely agree that many passages teach how Israel and the Jewish people are central to the Lord's plans as His return approaches, and that the times of the Gentiles are waning. As mentioned in this discussion, passages in Revelation such as chapter 12 emphasise this truth. However, in verse 17, after failing to exterminate Israel, the dragon turns on "those who obey God's commandments and hold to the testimony of Jesus" - presumably Christians. The interpretation that these and other references to believers in Revelation are "tribulation saints" assumes a separation of God's people, based on an interpretation of the timing of the rapture.
Do the striking parallels between Matthew 24 and 1 Thessalonians, detailed in the discussion, answer this question of timing? Or, do assumptions about the target audience affect our interpretation of what we read? No-one would dispute that Paul was writing to the church. However, is it correct to believe that Jesus was speaking to His disciples here as Jews, yet when talking with them within a few days about preparing a place for them - words widely interpreted as referring to the rapture - He was now addressing them as the church?
Along similar lines, with a pre-tribulation rapture, the Jews will face Anti-Christ, but the church will avoid his persecution. After Jesus returns, believers will reign on earth (Rev 5:10). So too will the saints ("the people of the Most High") whom Anti-Christ grievously afflicts during his 3.5 year rule (Dan 7:25-27). Are these the same or different groups of people?
(2) What is the significance of the timing of the "thief in the night" in Revelation? (See discussion on Matthew 24 above)
The "thief in the night" image is widely understood to refer to the rapture. Why in Revelation 16 does Jesus use this expression to alert His people to stay awake immediately after the kings of the East cross the Euphrates and just before Armageddon (between the 6th and 7th bowl judgements)?
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Editor |
04/06/2024 11:23 |
Ed. Note:
Graham Bridger has posted the following message in response to another article on the CT website. I am copying the message here as it is relevant to this discussion thread. See also Ed Note at the end.
>>>>quote>>>
Hi to Everyone
As I am sure many of Colin's subscribers realise, we live in perilous times when truth and lies, good and evil, illusion and reality are questioned at every turn. This is why I initially entitled my website, my early writings and my latest Substack articles ILLUSION2REALITY. It seems all too clear that the world is moving from previously hidden illusions about how life works to the reality of the times. It is why many people, including Christians, are asking: ‘What is happening worldwide today?
But why would any Bible-believing Christian be surprised?
Jesus told us that such things must occur before He returns to earth in power and glory. He told us very clearly that many would fall away from the faith in the last of the last days. The Bible clearly tells us in the gospel of John chapter 8, verse 44 that we have an enemy called Satan who will lie, deceive and murder; ’He was a murderer from the beginning and does not stand in the truth because there is no truth in him. Whenever he tells a lie, he speaks from his own nature because he is a liar and the father of lies
So why do so many Christians not realise what is happening today right under our noses? After all, we are told in scripture who Satan is and that ‘that the whole world lies in the power of the evil one’ (1 John 5:19)
So, I ask once again: Why the surprise?
During my many years of research, it has become clear that the whole world was being deceived into believing that the illusions about how life works are actually reality. But, thank God that in the days we are now living, some are beginning to wake up to expose the lies and perceptions of our times, and, as a result, more people are seeing through the deception. The problem for me is that so many of those waking up are not people of faith, whereas those who purport to be people of faith are being deceived. This tells me that something is seriously wrong with the church of Jesus Christ in our time.
I used the phrase ‘ILLUSION2REALITY’ to describe what I believed would happen as we became enveloped by the sheer power of deception in the last of the days before Jesus returned to earth that he warned would happen in Matthew 24. It is why we all need to be engaged in the journey from illusion to reality, but it seems few churches or church leaders are preparing their people or even speaking about the signs of the times.
This raises so many issues, but for now, I would particularly like to focus on how such deception will affect new young (in the faith) Christians and their ability to stand firm when all else around them descends into lies and falsehood.
I do want to say that I believe that the local church was ordained by God for believers to hear the Word of God where they could grow as Christians into Bible-believing, Spirit-filled people in fellowship together, thereby forming a deep union with God and able to see the signs of the times, as commanded by Jesus. But where are the churches? It has become abundantly clear that much of the church has succumbed to great deception and is in danger of ‘Falling Way’, also described by Jesus in Matthew 24 and other places.
There are numerous reasons for this, but the use of language and the change in the meaning of words are major factors in deception. In this response to Colin’s article and the very useful evening spent with JB Hixson, I will resist the temptation to stray too far.
For now, I would like to pose the question. In a clear glass of drinkable water, we are informed that it would only take approximately 100 to 300 milligrams of arsenic added to the glass to kill someone. This raises the question: How will this affect them if we do not receive pure truth from those responsible for revealing the whole truth of the Gospel of Christ?
When I read JB Hixon’s book entitled ‘ The Great Last Days Deception’, I was very impressed with his honesty and ability to write about complicated matters relating to the signs of the times. I felt that the book might be ideal for new Christians to read to help them begin to determine truth from lies. However, when I came to the pages where he describes the passage in the book of 2 Thessalonians chapter 2, which states that in the last days, there will be a great falling away (the word used is Apostasia), I was a bit gasp! In a study of the Greek word used, it becomes clear that this refers to people of faith no longer accepting the word of God as the truth and falling away from the truth, which Jesus made clear would happen.
In his book, JB writes that he believes 2 Thessalonians 2 provides the clearest and strongest text for a pre-tribulation rapture of the church, which is the escape by Christians through a supernatural act of God. In this way, we would avoid the worst times coming over the church. I personally feel that this change in the meaning of words from God would cause me to place a caveat on the book before giving it to anyone.
After all, to change The Word of God and use ‘apostasy’ to mean the ‘rapture’ of the church is, I believe, thoroughly dangerous and would likely lead new Christians to have wrong expectations about the end days that would make them totally vulnerable and unprepared for what Jesus told us would come over the church. How will Christians be able to stand firm in a postmodern society that does not believe in absolutes or truth?
It is true that over the years, we have had many great Bible teachers and preachers who know the truth that sets men free and who have played a powerful role in helping New Christians mature as they were taught pure Biblical words like ‘propitiation’ and ‘redemption’ as the real meaning of ‘sin’ and repentance - but, are they?
JB Hixon has written some great stuff, and the video with him discussing the signs of times was very helpful in many ways. One gets the impression that he is a dedicated follower of Jesus Christ and a man who speaks the truth. However, to teach Christians that they will escape the time we are heading for that Jesus outlined by changing the meaning of the word ‘Apostasia’ to the ‘Rapture’ is dangerous. If this had been God’s intention, he would have used the word ‘harpazo’, which means ‘snatching away as if by force’, and not ‘Apostasia’. Jesus told us that the coming times will be unlike anything the world has experienced before or will again.
My take on his interpretation is that it is likely to be setting up Christians to the powerful delusion that God said he would send up all those who refuse to believe the truth.
‘For this reason, God will send upon them a powerful deluding influence so that they will believe what is false’ (2 Thessalonians 2:11)
Graham Bridger
Illusion2Reality
<<<<<< end quote<<<<<
Ed note: An article by Rev. Tony Higton is available on the site. Tony was originally pre-trib but came to a different (post-trib) view.
https://www.christianstogether.net/Articles/368419/Christians_Together_in/Christian_Life/Christian_Survival_Resource/Will_there_be.aspx
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Philip Wren |
05/06/2024 10:06 |
I agree with Nick Thompson that the rapture refers to a city or community being visited by the emperor where the citizens go out to greet the emperor and escort him in and welcome him. In answer to how long the greeting will be my thoughts are that If Jesus at his coming fulfills the autumn feasts then it will last 10 days. This is the time between Yom Teruah and Yom Kippur. This period is recognised by the Jews as the 'high days of awe' when people need to get right with God. Christ Having gathered up His church, the Father will during this period pour out His wrath on the world as a final challenge to repent. Then Jesus will physically return to set foot on the earth.
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John Parker (Guest) |
05/06/2024 14:57 |
If Jesus is to return at the time of the Autumn Feasts and Daniel's 70th week starts with appearance of the Antichrist (which is I think is the majority belief), then this would suggest that we will know exactly when Jesus will come back?????
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Philip Wren |
05/06/2024 20:56 |
I should have underlined the if. We won't know with certainty until it happens. That is true of all interpretations. The coming of the thief will take us all by surprise. Some interpretations may prove correct, many will prove entirely wrong.
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Editor |
06/06/2024 09:33 |
With reference to John Parker's post (above) there are differing views on Daniel's 70th week. It's an important part of scripture and one that needs careful interpretation.
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(Guest) |
08/06/2024 12:38 |
Submitted by Jenny Yates
>>>>
With reference to John Parker's question about 'Daniel's 70th week,' I'm not sure if the belief that it "starts with the appearance of the Antichrist" is the majority view or not, but there are certainly many believers who take end-time prophecies seriously, who disagree with that idea.
The idea that the tribulation will last for seven years is based solely on a particular interpretation of Daniel's prophecy, but finds no support anywhere in the New Testament. There are numerous 'sevens' in Revelation: stars, lampstands, churches, letters, seals, trumpets, bowls and blessings, but no mention of a seven-year period for the 'reign' of the Beast. On the contrary, he is said to exercise his authority for only 42 months (Rev.13:5). In Scripture, seven symbolises perfection or completion. Three-and-a-half is half of that, and an incomplete number, so the 42 months could be taken literally, or simply be symbolic of a short but indefinite period of time, as stated by Jesus.
<<<<
Ed note: Regarding ‘Daniel’s 70th week’, it is indeed an important subject, and while closely related to the Rapture question is a different subject which is under ongoing review also. See - https://christianstogether.net/Articles/682328/Geoff_Barnard_on.aspx with more to follow.
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Jenny Yates |
11/06/2024 09:25 |
Re: Graham Bridger’s comments on JB Hixon’s book ‘The Great Last Days’ Deception’, and JB’s claim that the Greek word ‘apostasia’, in 2 Thessalonians 2:3, should be translated ‘departure’, and refers to a literal, physical departure of the Church from the earth, in a pre-tribulation ‘rapture.’
A few months ago, I came across an article promoting that idea, by Thomas D Ice, of Liberty University, USA. The heading included the very revealing statement “This Article is brought to you for free and open access by the Pre-Trib Research Center at Scholars Crossing.”
I wrote a response which can be read here: https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/dclg8omasiqnwfxb4q7qs/Rapture-apostasia-2-Thess-2.docx?rlkey=1t3slnppud7fjdn0b4yli2ah3&st=ihte12jx&dl=0
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