Christian Life 

The question is not "EU in or out?".

Even mature Christians are arguing the case on entirely the wrong grounds.

 
 
"If at any time I announce that a nation or kingdom is to be uprooted, torn down and destroyed, and if that nation I warned repents of its evil, then I will relent and not inflict on it the disaster I had planned.

And if at another time I announce that a nation or kingdom is to be built up and planted,
and if it does evil in my sight and does not obey me, then I will reconsider the good I had intended to do for it."
Jer: 18:7-10


Brexit mayThe division in the nation over Brexit is as profound as it is manifest;  no less in the Christian church. This is a tragedy: but not because of the upset. Rather it illustrates that Christians – even ‘mature’ Christians – are using the entirely wrong criteria when coming to a view.

Almost everywhere I hear pros and cons being argued on socio-political or economic grounds: this dynamic is exactly the same as that found in the secular world. It is very sad.

However amongst the more discerning I see and hear things being assessed from an entirely different (read ‘spiritual’) perspective.

 The EU is a modern-day tyrannical and totalitarian despot: it is – at its heart – a profoundly anti-God system. So the real question is not whether we should stay in Europe or leave, but rather whether it is God’s purpose – in His mercy – to deliver us from the Babel-like system; or, alternatively use the EU to bring judgement upon us; the judgement which we are truly most deserving.
 
It has ever been the way of God to use one nation (or nations) to bring judgement upon another.

Anyone who has the most rudimentary knowledge of Scripture will know God said of the Assyrians that He would use them as “a rod of my anger, in whose hand is the club of my wrath” (Isa. 10:5): the Babylonians in like manner (Jer 32:29).
Indeed it has ever been the way of God to use one nation (or nations) to bring judgement upon another.
 
However it is also the case that God’s uses ‘judgement’ to bring about His mercy. Irrespective of the final outcome of the utter mess which is Brexit, it is most likely that the UK will experience – in  the short term at least – massive turmoil. But it may indeed be that massive turmoil is needed in order to bring us – literally and metaphorically – to our knees. And in our despair that we might cry out to God.

LORD, I have heard of your fame; I stand in awe of your deeds,
O LORD. Renew them in our day, in our time make them known; in wrath remember mercy.
Habakkuk 3:2
 
 
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Steve Baker MP for Wycombe (Guest) 04/04/2019 09:06
Statement from Steve Baker MP for Wycombe.

The following is a copy of statement sent to the Editor of Christians Together.

>>>>>
“On Thursday evening, I decided to support the Prime Minister’s Brexit deal. By the grace of God, I changed my mind with the help of friends.

Now I see how my noble and brave colleague Richard Drax feels about backing this awful deal. He said in a television interview, “I personally feel utterly ashamed of myself for betraying everything I believed in, that this deal was a rotten deal.”

I could not be more proud of my Parliamentary colleague, both for the way he was willing to put his name to a proposition for the sake of the stability of the government and for the astonishing courage he has shown in revealing how he feels about it afterwards.

A gun was put to all our heads. Members of Parliament have been deliberately and systematically bullied by the British state towards a deal which is widely understood to be a betrayal of the fundamental principle of the referendum: a deal which converts a clear instruction to take back control into a surrender of our capacity for self-government with no voice, no vote and no escape.

That this would be done was announced in advance, at least twice. I recall reading in the press a Number 10 briefing that we would vote as many times as necessary to get the deal through, setting up a merciless battle of attrition. And Olly Robbins’ Brussels bar comments are well known: he was clear we would be made to believe our choice would be between the deal or a long extension.

He also confirmed what we knew: that the backstop is considered a bridge to the future relationship, not an insurance policy. Those of us who want an independent trade and regulatory policy for a free UK cannot accept a deal based on a customs union with a high degree of mandatory regulatory alignment. It would amount to a reversal of the referendum result, risking a Corn Laws-scale split in the Conservatives.

On top of the indefinite threat to the union, that’s why some of us could not swallow this shocking withdrawal agreement. And using the contemptuous phrase that the choice should “focus MPs’ minds” merely adds to the outrage. Our minds are now and ever focussed on the national interest of the UK.

And yet the situation we face this week is worse still. The Prime Minister now threatens a general election if we will not surrender at a fourth attempt. Yet it is a deal which every member of the public who approached me on Friday knew was a stinking repudiation of their vote. In principle and with practical foresight, it cannot be allowed to go through at any cost.

So the plan reveals two things about those who would be our masters. They are so confident of MPs' cowardice that they believe we will capitulate in our opinion of the national interest, not stand firm. And they are willing - as the Prime Minister’s horrible speech showed - to turn people on one another to get what they want: they presumably now anticipate that MPs facing an election will savage “recalcitrant” MPs into submission.

They can think again: I will revisit once more the question of whether I can retain the Whip before I submit to a life of regret and shame after failing in a struggle for the rights of a free people in which others have literally fought and died.

Events today are no longer about Europe or the European Union. By failing to accept a lawful democratic instruction, by constructing an exit deal which is a prison in which to await our defeated return to “The Project”, officialdom has made this a question of who governs and by what authority. It is now of little consequence whether you voted Leave or Remain, Conservative or Labour, Liberal Democrat or Green. Does your vote count?

The spite, pride, mendacity and pitiless commitment to trampling democracy with which we are governed today leads me to describe the situation without hesitation as wrong: deeply, profoundly, intolerably wrong. The entire nation, and especially Members of Parliament, have a duty to defeat this constitutionally in the division lobbies and at the ballot box with an unyielding resolve, a restrained wrath and a ruthless commitment to the principles of a free and open society.

I hope everyone will stand with us so that from this descent, our country and our institutions can arise renewed, without fear of falling into the same fate for generations."

Steve Baker
Conservative MP for Wycombe
<<<<<<
Dale (Guest) 04/04/2019 19:39
I wondered whether Steve Baker wrote this after last night's Cooper bill passed through the Commons with the slenderest of margins, and while May's deal is in the process of being watered down even further by involvement with opposition parties. Everyone agrees the Brexit process is a complete shambles. It is also apparent that this whole matter has been taken out of the hands of the ordinary voting people and has now been taken over by the parliamentary liberal elite.
As Bible-believing Christians we can be absolutely sure that as a result of a study of God's Word, especially His dealings with the people in the Old Testament, almighty God is completely sovereign over all the nations. So whatever our political persuasions, God is in control and whatever happens to our nation in the future is entirely in God's hands. Because of the sinfulness of our society which has turned its back on God, we are very likely to see God's wrath being metered out upon this nation, which in centuries past was a bulwark of the Christian faith. God's glorious purposes will be accomplished! To use a common cliché – as Christians we need to be 'salt and light' in this evil world.
jack (Guest) 22/05/2019 17:30
Dale,
As Christians we don't need to be 'salt and light' - Jesus said that we already are the salt of the earth and that we already are the light of the world. The reason being that our presence, salvation and sanctification are the only reasons why God continues to preserves this evil world from total destruction...
As far as the the state of this country is concerned - when spiritual lawlessness, disorder and confusion reign in a country - as they certainly have done for some time - then the only things which can physically/socially/politically manifest are lalwlessness, disorder, disintegration and confusion - all as witnessed in the present 'brexit' debacle
Mini 23/05/2019 17:57
Jack, you say "The reason being that our presence, salvation and sanctification are the only reasons why God continues to preserves this evil world from total destruction"?
Personally, I think God is continuing to preserve this evil world from total destruction is for the sake of those who have not yet heard the Gospel. He told Paul in Acts "I have much people in this city". Yes, Jesus has "much people" not yet saved even in Britain. He is waiting for our prayers to the Lord of the Harvest. He is waiting for our intercession. He is waiting for us to repent and become TOTAL for His Kingdom. Destruction cannot come on the nations till His people have been saved..."then will the end come".
jack (Guest) 23/05/2019 22:32
Sorry Mini
In trying to be brief - I omitted to include those who have not yet been saved.
Thank you for the correction
Editor 10/06/2019 16:43
Jack, you said: "As Christians we don't need to be 'salt and light' - Jesus said that we already are the salt of the earth and that we already are the light of the world."

I don't want to get into a long debate about this but salt needs to get out of the salt shaker and onto the meat, indeed it needs to be 'salty' or it will be thrown out and trampled underfoot (Matt 5:13). And - as Jesus said - light needs to be 'on a hill' where it can be seen (Matt 5:14).

Being salt and light are essential parts of fulfilling the Great Commission.
(Guest) 10/06/2019 23:43
Editor,
If I may say my pennysworth, Jack is correct in what he asserts, true Christians are "already the salt of the earth and that we are already the light of the world." Nevertheless, you are also correct-the "salt needs to get out of the salt shaker..."

Christians that believe in pre-destination/election (as I most certainly do) need also understand that we can't presume on election and that we must employ our God given gifts to "fulfilling the Great Commission." as you say.

Editor 15/06/2019 09:15
I do not place any much weight on anonymous posts. (I have a fairly good idea who "Jack" is.) I have already removed the response facility because of posts from those who are not prepared to identify themselves. I always hope to avoid such action, but.....

You may wish to note that Jack - as he so often does - heads of invariably into a long unrelated theme - usually related to predestination or some other Calvinist doctrine. A hobby horse is the first cousin of heresy. And heresy is often A Truth - taken to the illogical extreme.

And finally - as I wrote earlier - "I don't want to get into a long debate about this" - and will take whatever action becomes necessary to prevent this happening.

The 'victims' (when such becomes necessary) are those innocent, genuine and up-front site users who are denied the response facility because of the actions of an unprincipled few (who claim to the Christians).
(Guest) 20/06/2019 09:22
You tell 'em ed!
Editor 20/06/2019 13:07
(Guest) You are welcome to contact me directly in light of my responses to anonymous postings. Otherwise I will need to be even-handed and remove your post. Ed.
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Christians Together in the Highlands and Islands > Christian Life > Christians and Politics > 'In or out?' is the wrong question.