Christians Together : The Art of Hearing God

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	Eddie Hallahan	25/09/2009 10:42
Alec, That which is perfect refers to the new and heaven and earth. i.e. at the moment we know God in part but when the new heaven and earth return THEN we shall know Him fully. Miracles have not ceased, they are happening all the time where people put God before tradition and naysaying. I pray that the Holy Spirit would reveal the truth to you.
	Alec (Guest)	25/09/2009 11:38
Eddie, Intersting interpretation that one - most of the arguments over the meaning of that passage have "that which is perfect" referring to either Jesus, or the canon of Scripture. The NT Greek upholds the latter. I dont propose to end up in a game of "bible interpretation ping pong" however. There are terabytes of that stuff out there! Regarding miracles however. a miracle is defined as a supernatural suspension of the laws of physics. ie something which cannot have a naturalistic explanation eg. Example 1: Bus crashes into gorge, everyone escapes alive. A "miracle that everyone got out OK", they say. Wrong. Not a "miracle" but a PROVIDENCE Bus crashes, all are killed.Bodies laid out ready for the morgue. Holy man comes along and resurrects them all with a few words. Thats a miracle The first happens all the time The second doesnt. Miracles do not exist except in the minds of charismatics, pentecostals and Roman Catholics (the eucharist for example). They ended at the end of NT times. Period. Providences do however continue. If someone claims something is miraculous, then they are making a mighty claim indeed. Unless they have good rock solid evidence to back it up, then their "miracle" is worthless. The onus is on those making the claim to provide the proof, the evidence. Not surpisingly, it tendss to be in short supply. Alec
	Eddie Hallahan	28/09/2009 15:05
Who defines a miracle as a supernatural suspension of the laws of physics? I don't remember seeing that verse in the bible. Miracles exist in the mind of God Alec. Asserting that miracles ended at the end of NT times does not make it so, regardless of how much you wish it did. However I can see that that you have your mind and theology firmly set. I can only repeat my prayer that the Holy Spirit would reveal the truth to you.
	Alec (Guest)	28/09/2009 20:42
Eddie said: "Who defines a miracle as a supernatural suspension of the laws of physics? I don't remember seeing that verse in the bible." [sigh....] All the miracles mentioned in the bible are supernatural events that cannot be explained by rational / naturalistic explanations. eg Jesus turning water into wine. Water consists (mainly) of hydrogen and oxegen. Alcohol has carbon in its molecules. The various other components of wine will have carbon, nitrogen and probably a whole lot of other elements in trace quantities. It may be possible to create carbon by combining hydrogen an oxygen nuclei in places like CERN, but I suspect that this in not what Jesus' miracle was about. Another example: Bringing dead bodies back to life is simply impossible unless the supernatural is involved. Walking on water? Unless the water was so dense that gravity was unable to pull Jesus through it. Or else it was actually frozen... Again, the laws of nature (which are determined by physics) are being broken, assuming the water was in its normal state. Burning Bush? Any time I set fire to wood, it burns and immediately starts to break down. To create fire without combustible material being consumed is getting something for nothing. n-x = n is simply illogical for positive values of x. Therefore by a simple process of simply reading the bible and seeing what it says about the circumstances of each miracle makes it patently obvious that the laws of nature/physics/naturalism are temporarily suspended. They HAVE to be. It wouldnt be a miracle otherwise. (Could be a PROVIDENCE however as I pointed out earlier) Anyway, how about a dictionary dfinition: "an event contrary to the laws of nature and attributed to a supernatural cause" "a marvellous event manifesting a supernatural act of a divine agent" "something which man is not normally capable of making happen and which is therefore thought to be done by a god or God " Finally: "A miracle is a perceptible interruption of the laws of nature, such that can be attempted to be explained by divine intervention, and is sometimes associated with a miracle worker" (Wikipedia) Got it yet ? Furthermore, you assert that "Asserting that miracles ended at the end of NT times does not make it so, regardless of how much you wish it did" Fine. So you think they still exist. Heres a challenge. There is a guy called James Randi - has had a "million dollar challenge" running for several years. A million dollars to anyone who can demonstrate psychic or supernatural powers. www.randi.org for details. By demonstrate of course , it means being able to prove that such a thing actually exists. Can be demonstrated, repeated and shown to be actually true. Now just think about this for a minute. Since you clearly believe in present day miracles, lets see you put forward a "miracle man" I am sure you can find one. Let him take the Randi challenge. Since these miracles definitely exist and are definitely for today, I am sure he will wipe the floor with Randi and quickly bank the million dollars. Now think it through a bit further: 1) One of the worlds leading agnostics and opponent of all things supernatural gets hoist with his own petard. Massive blow for religion. 2) 1 million dollars - that'll buy a lot of bibles or pay for a lot of translation wont it. Use the devils money for Christs cause. 3) Think of the effect of this on the "neo-atheists" Before you know it, Dawkins wil be cycling past the village green on a Sunday morning, off to communion. 4) Think of the effect on other religions. Mass conversion will surely follow 5) Think of the bolstering effect on the Christian religion. All those cessationists who are otherwise very clued up on theology and the bible - they'd all have to admit they were wrong. I would. They'll be singing "shine jesus shine" till they are hoarse.... So, find yourself a "miracle worker" and get him to take the Randi challenge. If not why not? Something tells me that holding my breath at this point would not be a good idea...... Finally: "I can only repeat my prayer that the Holy Spirit would reveal the truth to you." Please, please please stop this sort of patronising nonsense. The Holy Spirit already HAS. The sort of "christianity" that holds to the sort of woo-woo theology being discussed here makes Christians look stupid and brings the whole religion into disrepute. It makes the faith an easy target for the neo-atheists with its ridiculous unsustainable claims and open mouthed credulity.
	Andrea Mac	28/09/2009 23:09
Alec, Jesus performed frequent indisputable miracles yet how did people respond to Him? - they killed Him! His miracles didn't bring about a massive turning to God. Instead, he was despised and treated with hostility, particularly by 'religious' folk, in fact, people who sound just like you are coming across. They were His worst enemies, not atheists or agnostics, and it sounds like today the same situation abounds. I suppose that Lazarus wasn't really dead, he'd been buried in an unconscious state. Or a 'blind' man wasn't permanently blind, just a blood clot which coincidently moved out of place when Jesus touched him. Or, how about Jesus coming back to life? I suppose we could use the Muslims explanation that he wasn't actually dead when he was taken down from the cross and made a recovery. So you see, no matter how spectacular it can possibly be - some people just will not believe. Shame really - they miss so much......
	Alec (Guest)	29/09/2009 09:10
I would dispute that Jesus was killed because he was a miracle worker. He was crucified for claiming to be the son of God, but that is another debate. And anyway,most of the hostility to Jesus from the religious folks of his day was because he challenged their legalistic hegemony. Jesus' miracles HAVE to be genuine, esp his resurrection, or else the Christian faith is worthless. The problem AFAICS, is that you are drawing an equivalence between Jesus and those today who claim to be his followers ,who have a hotline to God and claim to be able to deliver miracles today. This sort of equivalence is highly dangerous - it is getting into Creflo Dollar "you are gods" territory. My challenge is to those who CLAIM these supernatural abilities. After all they claim to be doing it in Gods name. That is the critical point. They are claiming some sort of extra-biblical revelation, some special "gift". Let their claims be examined, let them show us the evidence, the proof. If they are unwilling to do so, then they are no better than New Age woo-woo artists. To say "even if they showed you proof you still wouldnt believe" is just a convenient way of avoiding having to provide that evidence. My background is in science. Refusing to believe is not an option if the evidence is irrefutable. We go where the evidence leads. And if the evidence leads to a position that we were naturally sceptical about, well so be it. Shutting ones eyes and putting ones fingers in ones ears doesnt work. Another argument I hear is "Oh, you are testing God". No I am not. I am testing those who claim some sort of divine mandate. Their supernatural claims are not confined to the supernatural realm. These people are making claims for "gifts" that cross the supernatural/ natural interface. So it is perfectly valid to ask for empirical evidence to back up these claims. It would be irresponsible not to. The charismatic / pentecostal landscape is absolutely littered with exposed and disgraced fraudsters, liars, con men and snake oil salesmen. Hard to know where to begin with these people. But still the gullible and credulous come to be stripped of their hard earned dosh £95 for that "Art" of hearing God? (I note that it is the "art" of hearing God BTW, not the "science" of hearing God. Art is subjective, emotional, hard to pin down, incapable of objective evaluation. Sounds like they at least got one thing correct)
	Eddie Hallahan	29/09/2009 11:20
Dearie me Alec, Fairly seemed to have touched a nerve there. Firstly, I don't accept your definition of natural versus supernatural because as far as I am concerned God and his powers are perfectly natural. However we shall put that to one side and operate using your definition of natural/supernatural for the moment. As for me claiming to have supernatural powers - No I'm not. Any supernatural manifestation is of God, not me - God has the supernatural powers not me. The same incidentally would be true of Jesus - it was not the man that raised folk from the dead but the Spirit upon Him. Or don't you accept that Jesus was in fact fully man? You are the one that is putting science above God Alec, I would say that it is for YOU to prove why that is a biblical thing to do. And again I would repeat my prayer that the Holy Spirit would reveal the truth to you and that you wouldn't keep worshipping science over God.
	Alec (Guest)	29/09/2009 12:26
Eddie I am NOT putting science above God. (Makes me sound like soem sort of Dawkins-ite) What I am saying is that those who claim supernatural powers, those that believe in miracles, - the onus is on them to prove it. The burden of proof always rests with those making the claims. To simply go along with these people and their extraordinary claims , without any sort of questioning, is to run serious risks. Even Paul wsa subjected to the "Berean test". They didnt just take him at face value. Science above God? No, just sensible reasoning and a request to "prove it" above those who CLAIM to represnt God. Its as simple as that. Last word from me on the subject you will be pleased to hear!
	Andrea Mac	29/09/2009 12:41
Alec, You speak as though you think that the rest of us all believe everything we are told. We have discernment too and challenge claims which are spurious. The difference between us is that I still believe that God does at times use miracles to bring about an end result. These don't have to be spectacular and on a massive scale - just something which happens outside of human logic and understanding and usually as a result of heartfelt prayer. As Eddie has already said, none of us have 'supernatural abilities' and are not claiming them (this would be a sure way of being able to instantly dismiss a person). And, yes, religious people did challenge Jesus' behaviour but they used the scriptures to do it! And you too are using the scriptures to deny God's ability to still work miracles today. If you are unable to believe something unless you have scientific proof, then you can't exercise faith because, by its very nature, it is believing in something you haven't yet seen and for which you have no empirical proof. Where is the scientific proof that Jesus is God's son? There isn't any and never will be. Only His return will prove it beyond all doubt. God is not limited by science or human understanding and you seem to confining Him to it by insisting on proof that can be written down and understood by all scientists. I can't 'prove' that my husband loves me but I know that he does and so I don't need the existence of scientific evidence to prove it. What he does for me does not, in itself, prove love as you could still do these things for someone who you didn't love but - hey- you know when you're loved but won't ever be able to offer up 'evidence' for it. I find science fascinating and like to see evidence of things previously unknown or not before understood but I realise that God is way beyond science. You seem to be looking for God purely within science and, while He is certainly at the centre of it, He is also way beyond it.
	Alan Hughes	29/09/2009 14:29
If only we had so much passion and eloquence in our fight against abortion - or homosexuality or any of the other crimes we accept in this day and age. I've watched Alec comment on many topics but it would seem this is Alec's main thing. Alec, your version of theology is dull and unattractive. Jesus is the same yesterday today and forever. Suck it up buddy. Truth is truth. I have witnessed healing miracles. I have witnessed salvation miracles. I have spoke with many who have experienced other miraculous events. All attributed to God. I agree with you in your disdain of the title of this 'Art of' thing, but not your claims of the miraculous ending in the age of the Apostles. I hope I picked you up right?

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The Art of Hearing God

The Kings Fellowship is hosting a course on "The art of hearing God" which is described as being a "biblically based, in-depth course which aims to help people hear from God and to develop greater intimacy with Him."