Christians Together : The Art of Hearing God

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	Alec (Guest)	22/09/2009 22:24
Rosemary I agree with you, almost totally (I say that because i AM cessationist!) But not dispensationalist.... THe question whether a prophecy is from God or not is an extremely grave matter. The OT punishment for false prophecy was execution. To falsely claim to speak for God was that serious. And the test was simple. If a prophecy came true, then it was genuine,if not then.... Over the years there have been countless numbers of false prophets and false prophecies. And especially in recent years. Thats an awful lot of executions (just as well theonomy is not practiced eh?) And it will get worse. Already there is a huge internet meme relating to the date 21st Dec 2012. Just google it. Actually, dont, - you might end up wasting a lot of time on this one. I would be very surprised if Christians dont get in onthis one as well. (Incidentally, I just DID a quick google on 2012, and what came up was this site: http://survive2012.com/ And guess what, right there in it, under the FAQ, is a reference to the "2012 meme" As the year 2012 approaches, I suspect that this will become a big issue. I am prophecying nothing!!!!
	Eddie Hallahan	23/09/2009 10:33
Rosemary, I would say that it is more about being familiar with God than being familiar with the Bible - there are plenty of scholars who are exceedingly familiar with the Bible yet don't know God at all. That said, the best way for any christian to get more familiar with God is indeed by worshipful, prayerful study of His word. As to control, I agree with the scripture you posted but that doesn't negate the fact that as Christians we are supposed to be subject to God the Father, God the Son AND God the Holy Spirit and the Spirit will frequently take us places that we might not corporately feel is appropriate. One just has to look at the accounts of Pentecost to see that those early Christians did indeed look foolish to the world, and no doubt the religious people of the day. Don't get me wrong there has been and continues to be excess in terms of the spiritual gifts - but that is a failing of man, not God. I would also say that we can see that same excess in terms of legalism, judgmentalism and the like as well. In all of these cases the best way to counter them is to simply pursue Christ and trust in Him. Alec, Given that Isaiah's prophecies didn't come true for quite a while was he regarded as a false prophet at the time? Just because someone says they are a prophet doesn't make them so. In fact as part of the very first session of the above course they make the point that prophecy is a gift that you exercise rather than who you are. It is true however that there are plenty of people who are indeed false prophets, that doesn't however mean that all prophets are false. Cessationism is basically a defeatist theology based out of an experience lacking in the spiritual gifts. Our theology however should always be based on God and His Word. The Bible makes it abundantly clear that just as the fruit of the Holy Spirit is for today, so are the gifts of the Holy Spirit. As for the 2012 muppetry I agree it will get bigger, I think there is even a film already out, or soon to come out about it. I think it all comes from Mayan prophecies, although I don't really know an awful lot about it as I don't particularly care what the Mayans thought would happen.
	Alec (Guest)	23/09/2009 20:58
Eddie says: "Cessationism is basically a defeatist theology based out of an experience lacking in the spiritual gifts." Well this defeatist theology as you call it is supported by a lot of men who could only be described as theological giants. People like Iain D Campbell for instance, surely one of the greates churchmen of recent years in Scotland. OK, that was an appeal to authority and could be considered invalid. Try this one. I would argue that like a lot of other issues, you can quote scripture chapter and verse to support any view. And of course soemoen else who supports the view 180 degrees away from it will be equally able to find scriptural support. Forget what "saith scripture" Try something a bit more down to earth. Speaking in tongues, raising the dead, faith healing and prophesying are all quite remarkable claims. Quite astounding really. Trouble is, the degree to which they "work" is directly proportional to their degree of vagueness Take 3 examples: 1) Raising the dead (Reinhardt Bonnke, Heidi Baker et al) If these people can TRULY raise the dead, then let them work their woo-woo on an burned decapitated air crash victim. Kinda hard isnt it? Maybe their "gift" doesnt exist? Or only exists for people with "depression" and vague pains in the neck and stuff like that. 2) Speaking in tongues. OK. Record your next glossolalia session, get it on tape. Now take it to someone who claims to be able to translate tongues. Record the translation Repeat the exercise with 3 other translators who dont know and have never met one another. Get the same exact translation? Good. Repeat the exercise. Demonstrate it. Prove it - Nobel prize waiting for you. 3) Prophecy. OK. Compare and contrast "The lord has told me to warn the nations about doom gloom and calamity" with "On the 24th of August 2010, a ship will sink 15 miles off Portsmouth. All 55 crew will be rescued and the boat will take 2 hours 35 minutes to sink at grid ref XY" That would be pretty cool if the "prophet" got that one right wouldnt it? Except it doesnt work that way, does it? All these so called "gifts" when examined in a cold clear level headed light are just a sham. Like so many other extraordinary claims, the onus is on those MAKING them to come up with the evidence. Shouldnt be too hard - after all they claim that it is God himself who is empowering them. I rather suspect that what is "empowering" them is the voice in their heads. Alec
	Andrea Mac	23/09/2009 21:23
Alec, If someone were to come up with an exact date and time for any prophecy, that would be reason enough to be very sceptical about it. I can't recall one instance in the bible of any prophecy having exact timings attached to it (please correct me if I'm wrong here). It is therefore clear from what you say that you would not believe any prophecy, either today or had you been alive in Bible times. And before you accuse me of going with any wind that blows, that couldn't be any further from the truth. I find it easy to instantly dismiss the Todd Bentley's of this world, despite other Christians defence of them, but when the prophecy is coming from someone who has consistently lived in close relationship with God, and for whom I have a great deal of respect, I at least keep an open mind to the possibility of them accurately passing on a message from God, even if it seems unlikely.
	Eddie Hallahan	24/09/2009 10:17
Alec, I suggest you worry less about trying to use the worldly scientific method on the things of God and concentrate on using God's methods on the things of the world.
	Andrea (Guest)	24/09/2009 13:26
Hi, I am not saying that I wouldnt believe in biblical times prophecy - in those days, prophecy was real and part of the ongoing revelation of God. Now that we live in post apostolic times, these things have passed away (thats the cessationist position I hold to) I tend to adopt the position that the Puritans were fond of - that there are 2 books of God - the book of the Word of God .And the book of Nature - God's creation. Every time we discover something new about the universe, we discover more of God's truth. However I am very very wary of people who claim to have some sort of supernatural gift from God. And I dont think it is wrong to scrutinise these things carefully. If it is TRULY from the creator of the universe, from an all powerful, all knowing entity, then it must be something pretty special and extraordinary. And ot quote the late Carl Sagan again, "extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence" If it cant stand up to a bright light and a magnifying glass, then it doesnt sound too God-given to me. Besides, there is another side ot all this. There is no shortage of reationalists and sceptics looking to have a go at supernatural beliefs. I am not just talking abour relative newcomers like Richard Dawkins either. There are people like James Randi who have spent their entire lives demolishing "flim-flam and woo-woo". And among those exposed as liars cheats and snake oil salesmen are some prominent evangelicals. Peter Popoff for instance The damage that these people do to the christian faith is immense. And it just keeps happening again and again. Last year it was Todd Bentley, Year before it was Ted Haggard. A few years before, Paul Cain. It gets to the stage where it becomes embarassing And the one common factor in all these scandals is a belief in pentecostal/ charismatic gifts. I am not saying that cessationist pastors dont do bad stuff (I can think of a few examples not too far from here.......) Two texts worth pondering: Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father in heaven, On that day many will say to me, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many deeds of power in your name?' Then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; go away from me, you evildoers.'" (Matthew 7:21-23). and "For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect." Matthew 24:24. We were warned 2000 years ago. Now THAT'S prophecy!
	Andrea Mac	24/09/2009 14:18
Alec (?), I'm in complete agreement with you that there are false prophets and some of them will sound very convincing even to some Christians. Of course we have to be very discerning but not to the point where we throw the baby out with the bathwater. We will have to agree to disagree about whether prophecy is still relevant today. I see no Biblical evidence that it would stop and, in fact, it is verified in Acts 2 v 17: "In the last days, God says, I will pour out my Spirit on all people. Your sons and daughters will prophesy, your young men will see visions, your old men will dream dreams." While it is wise to thoroughly scrutinise every claim which is supposedly made in God's name, I don't want to be one of those who has become so sceptical that I miss genuine warnings from God. I hope I can still see through the many false claims without missing the rare but genuine article.
	Alec (Guest)	24/09/2009 17:27
Andrea, I hear what you are saying - that Acts 2 prophecy is interesting. In full it reads: 15These men are not drunk, as you suppose. It's only nine in the morning! 16No, this is what was spoken by the prophet Joel: 17" 'In the last days, God says, I will pour out my Spirit on all people. Your sons and daughters will prophesy, your young men will see visions, your old men will dream dreams. 18Even on my servants, both men and women, I will pour out my Spirit in those days, and they will prophesy. 19I will show wonders in the heaven above and signs on the earth below, blood and fire and billows of smoke. 20The sun will be turned to darkness and the moon to blood before the coming of the great and glorious day of the Lord. 21And everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved. Stirring stuff, indeed. But probably more questions than answers. It sounds all very apocalyptic, and it seems to me to refer to some future date when Jesus returns. There are clearly cosmic events foretold - all that sun and moon stuff. So I am not sure that it actually applies to the present age, but instead refers to sometime in the future. Peter refers to Joel, but Joel mentions this (which Peter doesnt) ".... before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD. 32 And everyone who calls on the name of the LORD will be saved; for on Mount Zion and in Jerusalem there will be deliverance, as the LORD has said, among the survivors whom the LORD calls. References to "great and dreadful day" and "survivors" makes an even more apocalyptic picture. And of course the word "day" gets translated in all sorts of ways - is it a 24 hour day per se, or is it an allegorical reference to a period of time? I honestly dont know. But one thing I am sure of, if the prophecy was given by one of the apostles in the apostolic age, then, yes, it will be fulfilled! Sometime!
	Andrea Mac	24/09/2009 18:18
Alec, I agree that Joel's prophecy seems to refer to events yet to come, but how do we know that we're not in the early stages of it? I'd still be interested to know why you believe that prophecies are not for this present age. I can't see why they should stop for 2,000 years or more and then restart. Our world has needed God all through the ages and He never changes and has still had to send warnings and revivals all through the centuries. Mmm....I wonder what you'd do if you ever had an unmistakable prophecy revealed to you - would you deliver it?
	Alec (Guest)	24/09/2009 20:48
Andrea to try to answer your questions, es, there ia a viewoint that the "end times" are actually here and now. I think this is very much one of those "seeing through a glass darkly" things - we could argue for hours and get nowhere! Regarding cessation of prophecy, I would refer to 2 things. One is scriptural, and well summed up in this writers words: Quote: The apostle Paul, however, spoke of a time when these miraculous gifts would pass away. In 1Cor. 12:8-10 nine spiritual gifts are mentioned, including prophecy, tongues, and knowledge. In the next chapter Paul states, "Love never fails. But whether there are prophecies, they will fail; whether there are tongues, they will cease; whether there is knowledge, it will vanish away. For we know in part and we prophesy in part. But when that which is perfect has come, then that which is in part will be done away" (1Cor. 13:8-10). Note the apostle speaks of the partial being done away when the perfect comes. Some, who try to say miracles still exist, say that the reference to "that which is perfect" speaks of Jesus. But here Paul isn't speaking of Jesus. If so why speak of Him as a thing instead of a person-- "that which is perfect"? The word "perfect" refers to that which is brought to completion, wanting nothing. The thing in the context that would eventually come to be perfect or complete, in contrast to that which was then only partial, is God's revelation. At that time God's revelation was only partially known through prophecy, tongue speaking, etc. It however, would eventually be completed, written down, and preserved. Today we have God's complete and perfect revelation-- the Bible. Thus, miracles have ceased just as the Lord's apostle foretold I agree with that forementioned position. The 2nd reason is simply that the evidence of what I have seen, heard and read is that modern prophecy is either so vague as to be worthless, or just downright ridiculous. However, if someone worthwhile DID come up with a good verifiable, prophecy (and I dont just mean future prediction) then I might rethink it. But again, it would have to be something pretty special, that simply couldnt be a good guess or intuition. Finally, Andrea, you last question. Yes I would. For the simple reason, that if the creative omnipresent omniscient, omnipotent entity that created the universe, including the furthest flung galaxies were to choose to talk through ME, a mere resident of an insignificant planet orbiting an insignificant star on the edge of an insignificant galaxy, then I suspect that that supernatural/natural interaction would be utterly unmistakable and unambiguous. Of course, such a prophecy would be 100% totally accurate, given its provenance, (as opposed to voices in my head) !!! Alec

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The Art of Hearing God

The Kings Fellowship is hosting a course on "The art of hearing God" which is described as being a "biblically based, in-depth course which aims to help people hear from God and to develop greater intimacy with Him."