Christians Together : Creation Ministries International Meetings

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	Alec (Guest)	25/02/2011 23:06
Think that's bad for TLA's? You should try computer networking protocols. Some of the TLAs even get duplicated..... But seriously, Young Earth Creationism, Old Earth Creationism, Free Church of Scotland, Westminster Confession of Faith....... (Should have just referred to Theistic Evolution as TE (slipped up there...)) But seriously again, how can a church have all these differing ideas about something which effectively defines the science/faith divide? You can be pretty sure that the FC(C) and the FPs have a more consistent view of such matters.... work it out!!
	Andrea M	26/02/2011 00:21
"But seriously again, how can a church have all these differing ideas about something which effectively defines the science/faith divide?" Indeed, how can they? Especially since the Bible is so clear.....
	Alec (Guest)	26/02/2011 12:51
Certainly, a literal reading of the Bible points to YEC , whether it is the early chapters of Genesis, Lukes genealogy and numerous other texts The problem is, of course that YEC is in complete conflict with the findings of science over the last 200 years. Those "creationist" scientists who try to shoehorn facts into a YEC paradigm are driven by matters of faith not science. eg the worst example of this is Kurt Wise. As far as I know, there are NO atheist scientists who are YEC. If the available scientific evidence was so flaky as to point to a YEC paradigm, then there would surely be some evidence from secular scientists. After all, most scientific discoveries are not of the "Eureka!" type, but of the "hey wait a minute, this isnt quite right...." type YEC is a dangerous piece of nonsense. It was best summarised by Davis Young some years ago, who hit the nail on the head: ----------------------> Davis A. Young, a conservative evangelical writer who is also a geologist. Author of two books devoted to separating evangelical theology from young-earth and creation-science theories. "What is much more likely to undermine Christian faith is the dogmatic and persistent effort of creationists to present their theory before the public, Christian and non-Christian, as in accord with Scripture and nature, especially when the evidence to the contrarty has been presented again and again by competent Christian Scientists (e.g. Davis A. Young, Creation and the Flood, D. E. Wonderly's God's Time-Records in Ancient Sediments, and numerous articles published over the years in Journal of the American Scientific Affiliation) It is sad that so much Christian energy has to be wasted in proposing and refuting the false theory of catastrophic Flood geology. But Christians need to know the truth andto be warned of error." "The faith of many Christian people could be hindered when they ultimately realize that the teachings of the Creationists are simply not in accord with the facts." "Furthermore, Creationism and Flood geology have put a serious roadblock in the way of unbelieving scientists. Although Christ has the power to save unbelievers in spite of our foolishness and poor presentation of the gospels, Christians should do all they can to avoid creating unnecessary stumbling blocks to the reception of the gospel." In closing: "We are all dealing with God's world and with God-created facts...We must handle the data reverently and worshipfully, yet we should not be afraid of where the facts may lead. God made those facts, and they fit into His comprehensive plan for the world." "Another possible danger is that in presenting the gospel to the lost and in defending God's truth we ourselves will seem to be false. It is time for Christian people to recognize that the defense of this modern, young-Earth, Flood-geology creationism is simply not truthful. It is simply not in accord with the facts that God has given. Creationism must be abandoned by Christians before harm is done. Thepersistent attempt of the creationist movement to get their points of view established in educational institutions can only bring harm to the Christian cause. Can we seriously expect non-Christian educational leaders to develop a respect for Christianity if we insist on teaching the brand of science that Creationism brings with it? Will not the forcing of modern Creationism on the public simply lend credence to the idea already entertained by so many intellectual leaders that Christianity, at least in its modern form, is sheer anti-intellectual obscurantism? I fear that it will." [_Christianitiy and the Age of the Earth_, by Davis Young, Zondervan 1982. p. 163.] ------------------------> Young wrote these words almost 30 years ago - they are as relevant if not more so now. YEC = "anti-intellectual obscurantism" Perfectly described.
	Andrea M	26/02/2011 13:14
Alec, I don't call myself any name like Creationist or anything else but I believe the opening chapters of Genesis as much as the rest of the Bible and so I am one of those 'foolish' people to whom you refer. I am not a scientist so can't debate with them as to the interpretation of what has been found. However, it doesn't cause me any concern. I have read some books and articles on the matter and realise that there is division between Christian and atheist scientists and wonder why this should be. They are looking at the same findings so, if they are so conclusive, why the conflict? I would imagine that if Christian scientists were to deny scientific facts were were indisputable, they would look extremely silly and be thoroughly discredited. I'm afraid I don't have the same confidence as you in the human ability to interpret our world accurately, especially when it refers to times long in the past. There is no-one to correct any errors in their reasoning, no matter how wise and credible that reasoning may seem. Those who don't want to believe in God have, to their mind, found a wonderful way of rejecting the whole idea by presenting us with a theory which contradicts the Biblical explanation of our origins. From the little knowledge I have gained of what we are being asked to believe of evolution, and the rejection of it from other scientific sources, it does not cause a problem for me to believe in science and believe the Bible. Quite a few years ago, a secular group of geologists performed a modern study of the bed of the Suez Canal. Their findings, brought about by all modern technology available, led them to surprisingly admit that it fitted much more with the flood than the ice age. There are many questions about our world and its origins which I can't answer and I have no problem saying, "I don't know". Not only do I not see a conflict with the bible and our world today but I would have no confidence in the rest of the Bible if the first few chapters were false and that for me is just not possible. It may be for other Christians, but it isn't for me.
	Martin Lisemore	26/02/2011 14:42
Like Andrea, I'm not a scientist, or a geologist. But I am very secure as a Christian man for whom the Bible is both the first and last word. The Creationist/Evolutionist battle just leaves me cold. If we stop a moment and think about the passions it arouses, the anger, stubborness, ill feeling and bitterness, then can we Christians say with a full heart, this battle is of, and for God? This battle, whilst being far from new, side tracks Christians, compels them to be partisans and often without a coherent understanding of the issue or the truthful science behind it. It is side tracking us away from issues in our increasingly Godless society of far greater importance to our Father such as abortion, child prostitution, drugs, alcohol, homelessness and much more. We're told by Creationists if we don't follow their way of thinking we have a wrong view of God thereby dishonouring Him. I put it to you, if we Christians lay down our Christ given duties in favour of battling a fruitless theory devised by atheists, then we really dishonour God! I put it to you, we would better spend our time witnessing to those without Christ, doing as one member here does, spent all Saturday night with drunks and drug addicts and the homeless on the streets of her city just caring, witnessing and feeding them in Jesus Name. In recent days on here the debate about technology has been re-ignited. I respectfully suggest, the use of God given technology to prove Him wrong or right is a base misuse of a gift of God. He calls for faith in Him, through Jesus, not a shallow, salvation free faith through archeology, geology or because one party won a round in the Creationist/Evolutionist debate. Putting down this diversion is long overdue. We Christians should pursue our Father's work here on earth, as Jesus did.
	Alec (Guest)	26/02/2011 17:33
Good thought provoking response from Martin. What seems to have happened, is that this Creation / Evolution or Faith / Science buisness seems to have become a big issue fairly recently. In the UK at any rate. I dont remembetr this being a big thing at all 20 - 30 years ago, certainly not in the UK (I realise I posted some stuff from Davis Young which WAS written 30 years ago, but he was primarily addressing an American audience there) I would suggest that the reasons for this becoming a big thing are two-fold 1) The rise of neo-atheism (and there are a whole host of reasons for that. Dawkins was NOT a household name pre 9/11...) 2) The decline in mainstream denominations which are generally "relaxed" about evolution etc. This has taken place slowly and steadily, probably since the late 50s. Certainly the Church of Scotland had its biggest membership in the mid 50s As a consequence, a polarisation is taking place - on the one hand there are the "shrill and strident" atheists dealing solely in a material, empirical universe On the other hand, there is an increasingly powerful evangelical / fundamentalist form of Christianity which is highly likely to be pro YEC. From what I can see and from those I know, evasngelicalism is increasingly fundamentalist. I dont thinkit was like that in the days of Martyn Lloyd-Jones or Billy Graham or even Cliff Richard. I also suspect that the growth of charismatic / pentecostalism has a lot to do with it. When the middle ground evaporates, it is seldom good whether in reigion or politics or any other walk of life. As a consequence, the non-believer / nominal church-goer / spiritually "interested" person is presented with a false dichotomy My concern is that they will do exactly as Davis Young highlighted in that article and say "Whoa.... not for me"
	Martin Lisemore	26/02/2011 19:06
Alec, the wider truth of your last paragraph is what concerns me most. There must be many 'spiritually interested,' folk who watch the god channels and are fed from there. The phone ins on Revelation TV gives a good clue as to the audience. I watch them occasionally too, mainly in the middle of the night when I can't sleep! I am very alarmed, and not a little ashamed, at the aggressive stance adopted by Creationist/Evolutionist protagonists on TV and in other media. Our media, literature included, is very often our showcase, it's what folk see of us. Right now, 'Whoa.... not for me,' is the stance I would take in their place. Add to that the flabby, gutless, appeasing decisions taken by, at least here in England, the Archbishop of Canterbury, and many bishops following him, and I would look to Heaven and say, 'you gotta do better than that if you want me!' How many newly saved folk, or those being called back after a long absence, are looking at so called Christian media and thinking, 'not for me. I'm at least honest at my stance.' Too many 'experts,' are claiming scientific proof of this and that .. our word science comes from the Greek gnosis, meaning knowledge. Knowledge is just what these people are not offering! This Creationist/Evolutionist war is playing right into the devil's hands. He'll just love it. The battle is for souls, not point scoring in the media. That will win no one. Back in the eighties I was loaned a tape from the Somerset Creationist Group. I copied it, and played it many times. I couldn't believe the myopic stand taken by these people. I have heard recordings of Martyn Lloyd-Jones from the Westminster Central Hall. A fine preacher, of exceptional clarity of thought. His focus, like that of Billy Graham, Billy Sunday, Spurgeon, Moody, Wesley and so many more, was Jesus. I do not see we have a mandate to enter into self destructive arguments between warring factions, and take our focus from Him who went to the cross for us. I cannot disagree with your points 1) and 2). I would like to add 3), but I won't steal your point. To sum it up, I guess you might say, Not in My Name.
	Andrea M	26/02/2011 19:22
Alec, I don't believe there is such a thing as a middle-ground with Christianity. I agree that some denominations, and particularly independent fellowships (but not all), either have such a relaxed attitude to Christianity that they are indistinguishable from the world or are aggressive and proud to be at odds with everyone. However, as far as beliefs are concerned, they should all be compatible as they should always be Bible-based. You can shout angrily that creation is the only way or you can gently but firmly say that this is what the Bible teaches and this is why you believe it. Either way, you have kept to the Bible but the second way is definitely the one for which I would have more respect. Sadly, today many churches are so desperate to draw people in that they lose sight of what they are supposed to be and try to make the gospel fit with what people want to hear. The gospel is offensive as it is tells them that they are not acceptable to God in their present form. To tell them that they are fine the way they are is not the gospel and is not helpful to these people. God will have His dealings with those of us who, in order to be popular, deceive people into thinking there is no need to change. What is the point in having a full church if they are not being told the truth so they can realise their need of Christ and be reconciled to Him? The same seems to be happening with the creation/evolution issue. Some are trying to make the Bible fit with evolution rather than just let the two beliefs exist separately. No-one will ever lead someone to a knowledge of God by denying what is in the Bible. We still may not lead someone to Christ by staying true to the Bible but our own consciences will be clear before God. The true gospel is not popular, never has been, and never will be. People will always reject it - let us not be counted in that number, even if it was for the best of intentions.
	MB (Guest)	26/02/2011 19:38
Too many people do not seem to get the theory of evolution despite a mass of overwhelming evidence. Sad.
	Andrea M	26/02/2011 21:40
MB, The evidence is only overwhelming if it fits with the theory. But, if the theory is wrong.....

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Creation Ministries International events

Creation Ministries International are holding two events in the Highlands at the beginning of March. One of these meetings is scheduled for Inverness; the other for Dornoch.

Inverness

Dornoch