Christians Together : Clan Gathering 2007

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	John Parker	09/08/2007 12:13
An interesting point that everything - the first time we experience it - is "new". And surely we must remain open to God who is a dynamic God; who wills and acts as he chooses - including ways in which may lie beyond our direct experience. However regarding (and I say this as a general comment and not particularly aimed at any one gathering), there is a very important distinction between being (merely) "entertained" and the act of "worshipping God". Being entertained is essentially a passive activity, and there is nothing wrong with that; but "worship" (in a corporate setting) should be not just an individual, but also a collective act. The term "worship leader" has generally come to mean "lead musician". The term "worship" should involve much more than solely "music/singing"; and the term "leader" might be better changed out for something that suggests a "facilitating" rather than "leading" role. Let's hold fast to the distinction between a "performance" and an act of worship. And let's be aware of the profound but often subtle difference between "atmospherics and shallow emotionalism" and the presence of the Spirit of God. And "quiet" is perhaps more important than volume. A conference speaker recently observed that we have reached a stage where we cannot (seem to) praise God with out 5 miles of electric cable.....
	Peter Carr	10/08/2007 12:25
Were you at CLAN, John?
	Margaret Stanfield	13/08/2007 22:32
I am really grateful to have been at CLAN this year. It was a wonderful experience..even with the wellies and the mud!! It was a wonderful feast of worship and soaking in Gods word....and I came home sensing that I had been washed in the word of God and having heard God speak to me individually. I am encouraged, strengthened and filled with clarity for the way that He wants me to play my part in His bigger plan. I am grateful for all the speakers, worship leaders and all who work in the background to facilitate this event....and I'm praying that Mark Stibbe will be back again. His message of The Fathers love and bringing teaching on the orphan heart is fundamental to the future of the Church and society at this time. Margaret Stanfield
	Al (Guest)	15/08/2007 22:26
I and many of my friends went this year and in previous years to Clan Gathering. Firstly, it is great to see many people from across Scotland join together to worship, and to see people with such passion. This is great, and wonderful to see. Unfortunatly though, underneath what is going on here is a distortion of the gospel. A self-centred, ego-building message is being permeated through the majority of the Clan seminars and main talks. We need to warn people about this. Clan Gathering underneath is promoting a deeply self-centred and egotistical message, emphasising how God "can make us great". The very opposite to the Biblical instruction to us, to be humble. (1 Peter 5:6-7) In one of the seminars at Soul Survivor they asking people if they wanted to be a "history maker". Historically and biblically speaking, all the trully great men and women of God were in total submission to Him, did not boast about themselves, nor strive to be "big celebrities" with "status" in the way that many Christian teachers do today. I'll outline the main false teaching. This is the "New Wine Gospel": (details at: www.geocities.com/Heartland/Hills/5977/newwine.html) 1.) (very subtle) Support of, and practice of the Toronto blessing: which includes uncontrollable laughing, animal noises and behaviour, twitching, and noises akin to someone being constipated. These things do not happen at every meeting, but they have been there in the past at Clan Gathering(witnesses by a few of my friends) and the leaders do promote the teaching. Kenny Borthwick goes on about himself making animal noises, claiming it was a “blessing from God”. In genuine revivals, very similar behaviour was recorded, although it was regarded as demonic and required deliverance. How blind must the church be to mistake the demonic for the Holy? Throughout the New Wine movement around the world has been the "toronto blessing", which is basically derived from a lust for experience and ends up making people act in totally disgraceful ways. In one meeting, a womans skirt was being pulled down and people were rolling around all over the floor. You wouldnt even see this kind of behaviour in the average pub on afriday night, let alone a church! It is totally contrary to scripture, which asserts that worship must be orderly. (1 Corinthians 14:26 – 40) m not saying that people cant be 'passionate' and cant raise their hands, but what is happening in the New Wine movement is totally godless behaviour of reidiculous proportions. One only has to examine the attributes of God(Exodus 15, 11) to see that what is happening is not of God. If they claim that this behaviour is from the Holy Spirit, then they also attributing disgraceful and unholy behaviour to God. If the toronto blessing trully is a blessing, and from God, then why are people keeping it quiet? (Jeremiah 20: 9). 2)-“Prophetic worship”: A heresy which says that we actually break down the devils strongholds as we worship. This is unbiblical, and is related to the spiritual warfare movement, which was exposed as false decades ago. 3.)-Taking emphasis off Jesus and His sacrifice for our sins and placing it on "us" and God wanting to "make us great"(Kenny Borthwick)Totally unbiblical. This is the opposite to the Bible: "He must increase, but I must decrease" (Jn. 3:30). 4.)-Large emphasis on teaching about dreams: taking emphasis off the Holy Scripture and overemphasis upon dreams for hearing God. Leading many people into confusion.(it has happened, because I have seen it in my local churches) We have seen many people 5.)-The “art” of hearing God: A teaching that there is a method(1,2,3) for hearing God. An arminian distortion, again taking emphasis off the Bible, which is clear. Although I do not reject God speaking to us through dreams, God has revealed himself fully and plainly in the scriptures: "The true rule is this: God's Word shall establish articles of faith, and no one else, not even an angel can do so." (Smalcald Article II, 15 - Martin Luther). (See Galatians 1:8). 6.)-Healing workshops: Again missing the point that healing comes through the sovereign grace of God. How can we be taught to do something which is sovereignly given in speaicl situations? 7.)-Overemphasis upon spiritual gifts: saying that they are "power tools". It is true that they are good things, but it again misses the fact of the sovereignty of God. Things like this take people away from the real miracles, the real priority, which is salvation. The teaching at Clan Gathering from the very beginning has gone away from the gospel; they endorse a gift-centred, unbiblical and self-centred ministry. Its no wonder they draw the crowds. Because it is unbiblical, there is little here to challenge the self-centred pride which dwells in all of us. In Col 3:16 it says “Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom; teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord.” When I read verses like: "For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believes"(Romans 1:16, 17).......I see the what they are missing. Clan Gathering have gone away from the gospel, they endorse a gift centred, self-centred, unbiblical ministry. A wordless ministry or a distorted-word ministry, means that we cant even worship properly. John Paul Jackson the main preacher for a few years now, read little of the Bible and spoke more about himself and his supernatural experiences. My friend (a theology student) was shocked by some of the drivel he was saying. While, the leader of Clan, said in one of his talks: “Jesus died on the cross for my sins, I believe that, but that’s NOT the gospel”. I was absolutely shocked when I heard this. He then went on to explain his gospel, which, in summary, was basically: “God wants to make us great” and spoke about his Toronto blessing experience. He even said that he believes that God spoke to the disciples primarily “through their dreams”. Where he got this idea, I really don’t know. Its not in the Bible! Please warn people about this, because otherwise more people will get lured into this error and ultimately be lead away from God not closer to Him. The New Wine movement is a dangerous movement, and however sound it may appear, underneath it is not.
	Peter Carr	16/08/2007 06:23
Having been to CLAN 3 years in a row, and having met with God in power there, I cannot agree with everything that the writer above says. Like any denomination or church service that is attended, an element of the human will always come through. It is up to mature believers to make the distinction. I have always found RT Kendal to be sound in his teaching, I wouldn't hold to all of the views being expressed at CLAN, but I suspect that would be the same with any other large gathering that represents different flavours of God's church.
	Jonathan (Guest)	16/08/2007 12:22
The editor(above) mentioned RT Kendalls changing his view of the "Toronto blessing" What did he say exactly? I remember he was an avid supporter of it a few years ago, supporting Rodney Howard Browns ministries. By the Editor "I was concerned however that (in a seminar) he seemed to allow a personal blessing into the lives of his wife and himself to completely change his view on the so-called "Toronto Blessing". (Surely our views - whatever they are - should be principally shaped by Scripture and not experience?)"
	Editor	16/08/2007 13:09
The comment re "RT Kendall" was submitted TO the Editor for placing on the web site (just for the record)
	Kenny Borthwick (Guest)	26/01/2008 21:01
Just to say to Johnathan that R.T.'s position on Toronto is still the same. Interesting to read folk's thoughts on CLAN. Thanks to those who wrote thoughtfully and with good intention. God Bless what you do for the Lord in this land
	Al (Guest)	23/07/2008 17:13
I'm sad to hear that RT Kendalls still for the toronto blessing. It is a disgrace to our Holy God. A blasphemy in fact. I've just been reading songs people have written at New Wine events, while under the influence of the toronto blessing. I am utterly disgusted by what I read. There were dozens of them. This is an example: "they say black girls can't dance, but all I see is no self respect, leaving me perplexed and vexed. You might as well open your legs. Its basically dry sex. Wineing aint dance, its foreplay.(referring to toronto blessing)Just imagine it without your clothes on but hey. Just keep looking straight and no one knows its you. No one knows its you. No one knows what you do behind closed doors. Only you and God know the score. Coz according to the law your legal." Its just disgraceful talking about God in this way. The toronto blessing is not the Holy Spirit. The leaders at clan do not want to agree with this, despite all the disgraceful things done under the influence of the Toronto blessing, like when Sandy Millar of Holy Trinity Brompton had to pull a womans skirt back over her legs because she was in such a state of drunkenness. This wap in front of the whole congregatio. In another incident, a person was crushed to death in a toronto meeting. Another person almost crashed their car while under the influence of the TB. If one of the fruits me the spirit is self control,(Gal:5) then what is this spirit? I wish people would think rationally and Biblically about this. It says in the Bible, do not be drunk no wine, which leads to debauchery BUT(indicating a contrast) be filled with the Holy Spirit. (Ephesians 5:18) also, in 1 Corinthians 14:40- "but all things should be done decently and in order" this contradicts the animal noises, rolling around in the floor, hysterical laughter, etc. Also during some toronto meetings I've seen, the Bible is laughed at, as well as hell. Would the spirit of God make people mock his own Word? I rest my case.
	Sammy (Guest)	27/07/2008 23:52
God Bless you Al. May you come to know the Father's love which Toronto was all about. Jesus will not be happy until you know the love the Father has for him he has for you. It does not seem as though the love of God has touched your heart yet. I feel his compassion for you. you remind me of Saul. It is hard for you to kick against the goads. Perhaps soon we will hear that the person who was once a persecutor is preaching the very things he once sought to destroy.

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