Debates (Open)

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Mini 14/10/2016 15:30
David, Jesus said:

“But you are not to be called 'Rabbi,' for you have one Teacher, and you are all brothers” Matt 23:8

What was He actually saying? He wasn’t saying no one should teach, was He? This is obvious from other verses. The point is, when we listen to a teacher, preacher or pastor, or just fellow Christians, we shouldn’t passively accept everything. We learn to tune in to what the Spirit is saying to us through the preacher. Because the Teacher of Truth is the Spirit of Truth.

No one man has the full un-interrupted flow of the Spirit (accept One: Jesus). Too many lazy Christians about. We need to think and listen carefully to all that is said, and test it out. The great advantage of flawed teachers (which is all of them) is that God uses their offerings to teach us discernment. This is no disrespect to those to whom God has given the ability to teach.

Don’t just listen to other Christians – do some work. And don’t feel you are the least of Christians and therefore the others must be right!

“I have written these things to you about those who are trying to deceive you. And the anointing you received from him remains in you, and you do not need anyone to teach you. But as his anointing teaches you about all things and as that anointing is real, not counterfeit--just as it has taught you, remain in him” 1 John 2:26

"They will not teach again,each man his neighbor and each man his brother,saying, 'Know the LORD,' for they will all know Me, from the LEAST of them to the greatest of them," Jer 31: 34

I am frankly amazed at the laziness and gullibility of Christians, who think because either their fellows, or, a preacher they admire and has authority, says something, then it must be true!

Some years ago, a charismatic leader said that God had shown him that to pray for the conversion of a particular person was the wrong approach. He was shown to pray that God would send the right person into his life. Now , that was good in that particular case. But the word went round that it was wrong to pray for people to receive Christ, but simply to pray for God to send the right person into their lives. The devil had a field day, putting a stop to Christians praying for the salvation of others!

I have always admired David Pawson (who was not the above mentioned leader). But recently he put something out that was quite wrong and sort of twisted. And because it’s David Pawson all sorts of other leaders are repeating these wrong ideas, parrot fashion. I don’t think any less of David Pawson, just of the stupidity of lazy Christians.

When someone is teaching, you need to do a spiritual workout at the same time.

David (Guest) 16/10/2016 20:44
Thanks for all that! But I am not clear whether you believe and teach pre-millennialism.

Mini 17/10/2016 14:04
David, I refuse to say whether I am pre or post millennialist. I’m not interested in human doctrines with high-and-mighty sounding names. You won’t find these terms in the bible.

However, I know perfectly well that Jesus has not yet come back to reign on earth yet! The evidence (A matter must be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses. Deut 19:15) is as follows:

1) Sheer common sense. What I see before my eyes.

2) Jesus’ first love, the Jews, have not yet recognised Jesus as their Messiah. (They are beginning to though: “learn a lesson from the fig tree. When its branches bud and its leaves begin to sprout, you know that summer is near. Mark 13:29”)

3) Rev 20:5 “They lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.”

This passage tells me that Jesus will reign on earth for a thousand years. It tells me it will happen AFTER Jesus has destroyed the antichrist. (previous verses) It will happen AFTER Jesus has raised His people from death. It will happen BEFORE “the rest of the dead”, ie the wicked, are raised to life.

Where’s the problem?

My theory is that many of these strange doctrines, which abound in the evangelical parts of the church, arose when most of the seals were still closed on books like Daniel and Revelation. The visions they contained looked so utterly weird, that people thought they were entirely symbolic, and they tried to interpret the symbols as though they were a code. Nature abhors a vacuum, and God’s people put interpretations where there weren’t any – they didn’t like being kept in the dark regarding these books.

The nearer we get towards the Last Days, the more real and the less symbolic these books become. I think the seals are starting to come off. The strange images, and even the horrible atmospheres in these books, are beginning to feel like just what we are living in every day now.

I'm not a teacher

David (Guest) 17/10/2016 20:14
Mini, in my humble opinion, your own words betray you. You have just perfectly stated that you believe in Christ's pre-millennial Second Coming! That is; you don't believe in a general resurrection; the righteous dead being resurrected at His Coming, followed by a 1000 years-then the resurrection of the wicked. From my understanding this makes you a pre-millennialist.

Mini 17/10/2016 21:33
No David, it doesn't mean that. I really hate these human doctrines. And human "movements". I try and listen to what God is saying to me. I often get it wrong. What I believe may be the same as what your "pre-millennialists" believe. That does not make me part of that crowd subscribing to that set of human doctrines!

Count me among those the bible describes as "the least" whom God teaches.

Truth is alive, and makes alive. Then humans come along and say: "oh I understand. I will set this all in stone and make it a dead thing"

The reason I went on a lot (which I tend to do anyway! That's my failing!) is that you sounded...despondent...almost dismayed or discouraged. I was trying to say: use your own head. Use your own relationship with God. Then compare with others and use your head again. There is no reason to feel ill at ease because "most" christians you speak to seem to be barking up the wrong tree.

CS Lewis wrote in one of his Narnia books, about how the youngest, Lucy, saw Aslan. When she saw him, she knew they should be going the other way. But the older children didn't believe her. Aslan, later on, was not displeased with the older children who were going the wrong way. He hadn't shown himself to them. He was only displeased with Lucy, because he had shown himself to her alone and she knew they were going the wrong way!
Editor 18/10/2016 10:53
David (and anyone elso who is interested in this most-debated of issues, the best (small, inexpensive and concise) summary I have come across is a book entitled 'How will the world end?'

It sets out the various views but does offer one of these as the author's personal view.

It is available from the Good Book Company -
David (Guest) 18/10/2016 22:20
Editor, thank you for that. It would be very helpful if you could tell me what the "author's personal view" is-this will be a major factor as to whether or not I purchase this book. As Mini clearly states, Christ's Second Coming will be pre-millennial, and I certainly agree with her.
As I have said earlier, my personal observations, as well as what the Bible clearly teaches, make the pre-millennial Second Coming of Christ to be factual.
Editor 19/10/2016 14:05
David, I have refrained from mentioning the author's personal view precisely for the reason that we (all) need to be familiar with the various views - even if these do not agree with our own. It would be a pity for anyone to make such a small purchasing decision (£2.99 in ebook form or £3.31 as hardcopy) on a fair-minded and comprehensive overview based on whether or not one agreed with the author's personal view.

There is a grave danger in any sphere of life if we confine our reading and thinking to the views of those who similarly-minded with ourselves.
Dale M 23/10/2016 19:33
"Is Millennialism biblical?"
Read this for a different perspective:
David (Guest) 23/10/2016 21:59
Sorry, for some reason, I posted the relevant post on another topic!

Reading Kilgore again. Not only does he pour scorn on pre-millennialism by saying he used to believe in it (as if this gives him any credibility!) Such may be compared with Jonathan Edwards (BBC commentator) saying "I used to be a Christian"! As if this settles the matter?

Not only is the 1000 years mentioned six times in Rev 20, but the Jews were looking to God to fulfill His promise to Abraham! Did this patriarch set his foot in the land? No. But one day he will. God said so! Genesis 12: 1-3,7, 13: 15-17, 15: 5-7, 17: 4-8, 24:7.
Has Abraham walked in the promised Land? One day he will. God does NOT break His promises.

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